NFL Draft- Day one... winners and losers

[Rick Middleton]

Originally Posted by laus723

Explain to me why everyone keeps saying they took Ginn too early? Quinn was available but they had Beck rated higer than Quinn and knew Beck would be available in the next round, Ginn wouldn't have been. They took the player they felt they needed most. Ginn gives this team the speed at receiver they haven't had. Oh, and Steve Smith is a great receiver/returner. Who wouldn't want that guy on their team?

Ginn was rated by the majority of teams as a mid 1st round pick, and given that their need was and still is clearly a QB, choosing a WR and forgoing the 2nd best QB in the draft in the minds of virtually every other team/pundit will inevitably lead people to question your decision. I would say with some measure of certainty that the majority of the teams had Quinn rated higher than Beck and significantly higher at that.

Cameron and Mueller know quarterbacks, they felt Beck was the better choice. If you listened during the draft to everyone talking about Quinn, many felt he is overrated as well.

Many of us here did listen to the draft, and we heard how the Dolphins were panned for their selection. The entire draft table questioned the selection of Ginn at that point in time. Yes, they did note that Quinn had flaws in his game, but flaws that could be corrected. If Quinn is able to work out those flaws, will he be a more valuable player than Ginn? Undoubtedly. You win and lose games because of your QB, not your 2nd/3rd WR (it is unlikely that Ginn will be your #1 target at WR).

I'll trust a guy who's made a living at recognizing good players and working with them to make them great.

You're showing blind faith to the Dolphins management. That's fine. Time will tell if they made the correct decision. For now, there are far more people who disagree with the Dolphins than agree. And they make their living evaluating talent. So someone is in the wrong here.

Originally Posted by laus723

More on the Phins and what was going on...Dolphins secretive draft plan works to perfection: South Florida Sun-Sentinel

Miami knew exactly what they were doing!

This proves nothing. They were following the plan that they had set out. That doesn't validate the plan. That means that they stuck to what they believed in, be it flawed or not.

Simply put, QB's are and will continue to be valued and rated higher than WR's. Hell, look at who Ginn will replace ... Wes Welker. He was an undrafted player. Miami spent the #9 pick on a WR who will replace an undrafted player.

In the end time will tell as to whether this was the right move to make. Most disagree. Few agree. So it shouldn't be a surprise that the Dolphins are being panned for their move.

[Laus723]

And this speculation won't end until everyone takes the field. You also missed the quoted section in the article of everyone else who passed over Quinn.

The Dolphins had a gameplan and they suck with it. They wanted Ginn, they got him, the Texans would have taken him next. You're saying Ginn will replace an undrafted Welker (who your team paid for with a 2nd and 7th, btw) but Ginn's size is the same as the top receivers in the game right now. He'll be the speediest guy on the team and could easily be the #1 guy.

Cameron and Mueller have spun out some great quarterbacks, including the very much improved Brees and Rivers. While everyone stood shocked that they didn't take Quinn, they also all stated their opinions on him once he slid. Many have said how overrated Quinn is, including his accuracy issues. Again, I'll trust a couple of guys who've spun out some great quarterbacks in the recent past. And if he was so spectacular, why didn't the Bills take him? Losman is getting better, but he's not that good.

I'm glad they stuck with their plan, it proves they had one and spent time evaluating the players before blindly picking them.

[FancyFootball44]

Originally Posted by laus723

You also missed the quoted section in the article of everyone else who passed over Quinn.

Maybe not so much missed it as much as dismissed it. There were reasons he was passed over. Obviously Detroit wanted (another) receiver and/or the best player in the draft and Cleveland clearly thought they were in need of o-lineman a tad bit more than a QB (which I'll agree.) I could post a million articles proving just that but I won't.

[Laus723]

Originally Posted by FancyFootball44

Maybe not so much missed it as much as dismissed it. There were reasons he was passed over. Obviously Detroit wanted (another) receiver and/or the best player in the draft and Cleveland clearly thought they were in need of o-lineman a tad bit more than a QB (which I'll agree.) I could post a million articles proving just that but I won't.

And Miami wanted Ginn, why are they getting thrown under the bus so bad when they knew Houston was going to take him?

[Rick Middleton]

Originally Posted by laus723

And this speculation won't end until everyone takes the field. You also missed the quoted section in the article of everyone else who passed over Quinn.

Of the teams who passed on Quinn, the one that had the greatest need for a QB was the Browns ... who ended up drafting him. Detroit acquired a WR who by all accounts could be dominant this year. Tampe Bay just acquired Chris Simms, so drafting another young QB wasn't in the cards. Carolina has a quality starter in Jake Delhomme who isn't going anywhere for at least 3 years, and Jacksonville had Garrard and Leftwich. So really, of those teams the article mentioned, only Miami had a true need for a QB.

The Dolphins had a gameplan and they suck with it. They wanted Ginn, they got him, the Texans would have taken him next. You're saying Ginn will replace an undrafted Welker (who your team paid for with a 2nd and 7th, btw)

Not sure what relevance that has to the discussion at hand.

but Ginn's size is the same as the top receivers in the game right now. He'll be the speediest guy on the team and could easily be the #1 guy.

Ginn is a small 6'0", and I doubt he'll supplant Booker or Chambers this year.

[Laus723]

Originally Posted by Rick Middleton

Of the teams who passed on Quinn, the one that had the greatest need for a QB was the Browns ... who ended up drafting him. Detroit acquired a WR who by all accounts could be dominant this year. Tampe Bay just acquired Chris Simms, so drafting another young QB wasn't in the cards. Carolina has a quality starter in Jake Delhomme who isn't going anywhere for at least 3 years, and Jacksonville had Garrard and Leftwich. So really, of those teams the article mentioned, only Miami had a true need for a QB.

Simms isn't doing terribly well in Tampa, Delhomme only shows flashes of his brilliance at times, and both Jacksonville QBs are in the hot seat after very subpar seasons. Detroit took the best guy available and were able to trade away their excess fat in Williams. Cleveland took an OT first even though Quinn was begging he be drafted to Cleveland. Yes they eventually took him and drafted up, but he fell all the way to 22nd before they mad that move. And again, Losman is far from a great QB, as everyone is making Brady out to be, so why didn't they take him? Because all those teams took what they felt was the best guy available according to their needs.

Leaf was selected 2nd overall and we all know what happened to him. In fact, a lot of the QBs taken early turn out to be busts. Tom Brady was taken in the 5th round, it's a crapshoot. Cameron greatly improved Brees' game and spent time with Rivers as well. Not to beat a dead horse, but these guys know quarterbacks. It's not blind faith, it's looking at both guy's history with them that I trust.

Not sure what relevance that has to the discussion at hand.

You stated Ginn was replacing a guy who went undrafted, as if to say he had no value. I simply reminded you what New England felt he was worth. If it wasn't relevant, you shouldn't have brought up Welker.

Ginn is a small 6'0", and I doubt he'll supplant Booker or Chambers this year.

He's not that much smaller than Johnson, Harrison, or the others. Same as I don't expect Beck to come in and be Rothlisberger, I don't expect Ginn to be the Harrison. I certainly don't expect Quinn to be Brady or Manning, not right away. Chambers isn't a #1 and Booker is pretty much a #3 which is why he's on the trading block.

[FancyFootball44]

For me it was just a complete shock I think mostly because Ginn is injured and they seem so in need of a QB and faked such interest in Quinn.

[Rick Middleton]

Originally Posted by laus723

You stated Ginn was replacing a guy who went undrafted, as if to say he had no value. I simply reminded you what New England felt he was worth. If it wasn't relevant, you shouldn't have brought up Welker.

My intent wasn't to deride either's talent, but to state that a fast WR and a good PR can be found at virtually any point in the draft. Unless Ginn comes out and turns into a cross-breed of Daunte Hall and Troy Brown I simply can't justify a team using such a high pick on him. Again, time will tell, but for now it's a bad pick from my POV.

[Laus723]

Originally Posted by Rick Middleton

My intent wasn't to deride either's talent, but to state that a fast WR and a good PR can be found at virtually any point in the draft. Unless Ginn comes out and turns into a cross-breed of Daunte Hall and Troy Brown I simply can't justify a team using such a high pick on him. Again, time will tell, but for now it's a bad pick from my POV.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. NFL.com reported that Houston was planning on taking him with the next pick and others have stated they liked Ginn as well. Miami took him because they figured he'd be gone before Beck was, and they were right.

[TheFallenOne]

Originally Posted by laus723

NFL.com reported that Houston was planning on taking him with the next pick and others have stated they liked Ginn as well.

Oh god, don't use that as an excuse. The Texans? The same team that passed on Reggie Bush the year earlier??? That's a good reason to reach on a guy,... because the morons behind you in the draft will reach on him if you don't???



jj laus. Good luck with Ginn Jr.,

[Laus723]

Originally Posted by TheFallenOne

Oh god, don't use that as an excuse. The Texans? The same team that passed on Reggie Bush the year earlier??? That's a good reason to reach on a guy,... because the morons behind you in the draft will reach on him if you don't???



jj laus. Good luck with Ginn Jr.,

I'm not using it as an excuse, I didn't draft him, team management did, I don't need an excuse. Since Miami had him rated so high that they didn't want to lose him to Houston or anyone else. They didn't want Quinn, they wanted Ginn and Beck and they knew Ginn would have been snatched up.

Quinn is hardly anything near Bush's skill. Doesn't matter what Houston did earlier, they wanted the same guy Miami did and Miami took him. Why take Okoye when the offense is the problem? WHy pass on a very fast receiver when they needed one? There's been plenty of people who opened their mouths about Quinn before the draft and as he began to slide. many feel he's overrated, as did Miami.

[Jay]

okay now ... i did plan on staying out of this hissy fit, untill my beloved texans were mentioned.

Unfortunately, reports are true, Kubiak and Smith had Ginn rated pretty high on the board and would've selected him if he was still available (of course i disagree with it) but to mention that we passed on Bush, is a dead and moot point.

We offered both guys contracts, and it was Bush's camp who rejected ... not us, so evidently we went with Mario, who also filled a glaring need in our inept defense.

People can criticize all they want to about this being a bad pick .. but A) Bush is not an every down back, and wasn't worth the money and B) at the time we did have high hopes of Dominick Williiams returning healthy ... so in all actuality we made the best pick at the time ... and IMO - to date.

[Laus723]

Originally Posted by Jaytrajik

People can criticize all they want to about this being a bad pick .. ... so in all actuality we made the best pick at the time

As did Miami...

and who's throwing a 'hissy fit?' All I'm doing is explaining why Miami took Ginn and defending my team...

[TheFallenOne]

Wow! A Texans fan! I haven't seen many of you guys online in my days.

In all seriousness, this cat loves football first and foremost. I love the sport (i.e. all 32 teams as a league entity) more than my Lions in isolation.

I understand how incredibly difficult it is to build a winning franchise and I understand that, even if you manage to put all the pieces together, you still need those elusive intangibles: team cohesion, injury luck (the good kind), and an sense of destiny etc...

I'm a fan of every warrior out on that field, so long as they play with heart and the concept of 'team' in mind. Sorry T.O. ya jackass!

I apologize for the 'morons' comment. I never meant it serously.

[hit_'em88]

Originally Posted by laus723

The Dolphins had a gameplan and they suck with it.

got that right
now i'm gonna mention a move even dumber than that the browns trading their 1st pick next year to get brady quinn its great they got their guy in what i think is a steal at 22 but what if their pick next year is #1 overall? dallas would get a great player and the browns will look really really dumb there had to be a player they could trade or something